Herbert Fromm Interview with Bruce Duffie . . . . . . . . .

Composer / Conductor / Organist Herbert Fromm

A Conversation with Bruce Duffie

Herbert Fromm (born February 23, 1905 in Kitzingen, Lower Franconia; died March 10, 1995 in Brookline, Massachusetts) was a German-American organist, conductor and composer. In the 1930s he was celebrated in Germany as a “renewer of synagogue music”. He emigrated to the USA after the Nazi seizure of power in 1937 and continued his work there, which is why his work is also attributed aa great importance for the Jewish-spiritual song in America.

The city of Kitzingen was located in the Kingdom of Bavaria and was known for its wine trade. The father Max Fromm specialized as a merchant in the trade in wine, the mother Mathilde Maria, born Maier worked as a housewife. He had a total of four siblings, including his twin brother Alfred who later followed in the father's footsteps and took over the wine shop [and brother Paul, with whom he played four-handed piano duets]. In addition, his father brought two half-sisters into the marriage. All the siblings and the father managed to emigrate to the United States in the 1930s. Fromm was also cousin of the psychoanalyst Erich Fromm, whose father was a brother of Max Fromm.

The young Fromm learned four-handed piano playing together with his twin brother, and the other siblings were also promoted musically early on. Many members of the family later became involved in the promotion of artists. After Fromm had injured his finger in his youth and thus had to give up the plans to become a concert pianist, he began to compose and conduct. In the early days of the musicians, local poet and lawyer Armin Knab, who had also grown up in Kitzingen, rose to become a sponsor. From 1925 to 1928, Fromm studied composition at the State Academy of Tonkunst in Munich. This training was followed by a two-year master class, with Fromm now learning to conduct in addition to composition.

After his training, Fromm initially took up a position as a conductor at the Stadttheater Bielefeld. He moved to Würzburg in 1931. Fromm was released there a few weeks after the Nazis seized power. In the following years, he became involved in the Jewish Cultural Association in Frankfurt am Main, and soon became a choir director and concert attendant. During this time, a large number of his own compositions were created, which also had their first performance in the context of the Kulturbund activity. In addition, Fromm soon appeared as an organist. From 1934 he assisted his organ teacher Siegfried Würzburger at the Westend Synagogue in Frankfurt am Main, and in 1935 he was also able to be proven at the main synagogue in Wiesbaden, Mainz and Bingen. Fromm lived in Bingen at that time. In the 1930s, he was celebrated as a “renewer of synagogue music”

At the beginning of 1936, Fromm first traveled to New York. There he gave a concert with the baritone Ernst Wolff, at which his own compositions were also performed. In January 1937, he finally emigrated to the United States. He said goodbye to his hometown of Bingen with a concert. He reached New York on February 1, 1937. The migration was preceded by an application for a position as an organist and music director at Temple Beth Zion in Buffalo, New York. In addition, from 1939 Fromm was appointed organist and choir director of the First Presbyterian Church of East Aurora, New York. He continued his education in counterpoint with Paul Hindemith at the University of Buffalo, which had an impact on the diversity of his compositions. On January 22, 1942, Fromm married the Frankfurt-based actress Leni Steinberg.

In June 1941, he had left Buffalo and took up a position at Temple Israel in Boston, Massachusetts. There, until his retirement in 1972, Fromm worked as a music director and organist. He wrote and led a variety of works. In addition to synagogue music, he also composed a number of secular pieces. Among Fromm's works from the time in Boston are choral music, song cycles, chamber music, spiritual cantatas, organ and piano music. In the United States, Fromm’s work also had a lasting influence on music in the synagogue, and earned him several prizes and awards.

In the autumn of 1960, Fromm returned to Germany as part of a trip to Europe, where he gave concerts in Munich and Frankfurt. In March 1944, he had accepted U.S. citizenship. Reparation proceedings were initiated in 1962. In the course of this, Fromm visited Germany again. He returned to his native city in 1966. He died in 1995 in Brookline, Massachusetts. After his death, the Temple of Israel in Boston established the Herbert and Leni Fromm Composers Fund, which promotes the composition of new spiritual works. Leni Fromm lived until March 20, 1997.

Fromm published a large number of works from the 1920s onwards. The focus was on the compositions, but he also published writings. With his relocation to the USA, his music production steadily increased, at times more than five works per year appeared. Fromm preferred to work for his compositions with the New York City-based label Transcontinental Music. In 1961, a music edition of his works was published under the title Hymns and songs for the synagogue. The last works date to 1990. In his estate there are other handwritten pieces. From the 1960s, Fromm's books were published, including several biographies of American-Jewish composers. They appeared in American specialist publishers for music history.

Compositions

Cuban Habenera, for piano. o. O. approx. 1920–1925.
Jewish folks without words. Nigunim, for female choir and piano. o. O. approx. 1934.
Shepherd's story, for middle voice and piano, 1934. Transcontinental Music, New York 1939.
Five Palestinian folk ways, for middle voice and orchestra. o. O. 1935.
In eternity, for mixed choir and orchestra. o. O. 1935.
Piano suite according to Jewish folks. o. O. approx. 1935.
O Korn, for mixed choir and orchestra. o. O. 1935.
Passacaglia and Fugue, for organ. o. O. 1935.
Eight short chorale auditions, for organ. o. O. 1936.
Palestinian cradlesong. Numi, numi, for middle voice and piano. o. O. 1936.
A Psalm of David. Words of the 18. Psalms. Motet for mixed choir a capella. Jewish Cultural Association, Frankfurt am Main.
Around the Sabbath table, for deep voice, mixed choir and piano. Transcontinental Music, New York 1941.
Prelude. Shalom Aleychem, for orchestra. o. O. 1941.
Grant us peace, for voice or choir and organ or piano, 1941. Transcontinental Music, New York 1943.
Adath Israel, Friday eve service, for cantor, mixed choir and organ. Transcontinental Music, New York 1943.
Adon olom. The Lord of all, for cantor, mixed choir and organ. Transcontinental Music, New York 1943.
Kiddush. Synagogue music of our day, for cantor, mixed choir and organ. Transcontinental Music, New York 1943.
New Year’s anthem, for choir and organ, 1944. Transcontinental Music, New York 1946.
Yemenite Passover song. Adir hu, for soprano, mixed choir and piano. Transcontinental Music, New York 1946.
Psalm 121, for mixed choir, 1947. R. D. Row Music, Boston 1948.
A Proverb. From the Wisdom of Solomon, for unanimous choir, solo and piano. Transcontinental, New York 1948.
In grato jubilo. An occasional cantata for Serge Koussevitzky, for Altsolo, Frauenchor and Instrumental Ensemble. o. O. 1949.
Light is sown. Or zorua, cantata for speaker, tenor, choir and ensemble. o. O. 1950.
Six madrigals, for mixed choir, 1950. Transcontinental Music, New York 1951.
Concerto, for flute and string orchestra. o. O. 1952.
Sonata in G, for violin and piano, 1949. Boosey & Hawkes, New York 1954.
Psalm 126 after a traditional melody, for mixed choir and organ. O. 1958.
Suite, 1958, edited for different ensembles. Transcontinental Music, New York 1959-1960.
Psalm cantata, for choir and brass quintet. o. O. 1959.
Tov lehodos: Psalm 92, for cantor, choir and organ. o. O. approx. 1959.
Avodat Shabbat. Sabbath eve service, for cantor, mixed choir and organ. Transcontinental Music, New York 1960.
Onto the hills: Psalm 121, for voice and keyboard instrument. o. O. 1961.
The 24rd Psalm, for mixed choir, tenor or soprano and orchestra. O. 1962.
Partita on Baruch haba (a melody from the southern French synagogue), for organ, 1958. E. C. Schirmer, Boston 1962.
Psalm cantata, for soprano, mixed choir and orchestra. o. O. 1963.
Chemdat yamim. Sabbath morning service (The day of delight), for cantor, soloists, mixed choir and instrumental ensemble or organ. Transcontinental Music, New York 1964.
Organ prelude based on High Holiday motifs, 1964. Transcontinental Music, New York 1965.
Avinu malkenu. After a Sephardic melody, for bass, mixed choir and organ. o. O. 1968.
Seven prayers, for middle voice and piano (organ), 1968. Transcontinental Music, New York 1969.
The banner of love. Cantata, for soprano, tenor, female choir and orchestra. o. O. 1968.
Four psalms (using Sephardic intonations), for high voice and piano or organ, 1970. Transcontinental Music, New York 1971.
The Song of Songs, for soprano, tenor and piano. o. O. 1976.
How can I sing? For mixed choir and organ. Transcontinental Music, New York 1977.
Sonata based on a Sephardic hymn, for piano, 1977. Transcontinental Music, New York 1978.
Yemenite cycle, for medium voice, flute, harp and drums. Israeli Music Publications, Tel Aviv 1977.
Eli siyon (Mourn, Zion), for mixed choir and organ, 1978. Transcontinental Music, New York 1979.
Two adorations music, for cantor, mixed choir and organ. Transcontinental Music, New York 1981.
Ya shimcha. A Hebrew cantata, for tenor, mixed choir, speaker and organ. Transcontinental Music, New York 1982.
Psalm verses, for soprano, string orchestra and timpani. o. O. 1983.
Two psalm settings, for choir and accompaniment. Carol Stream, Hope 1983.
Quintet, for flute, oboe, clarinet, horn and bassoon. O. 1984.
Kabbalat Shabbat: Psalms 92, 95 and 97, for mixed choir. O. 1985.
Piano sonata No. 2. o. O. 1988.
Suite, for organ. o. O. 1989.
Come with me. Five poems by James Stephens, for high voice and piano. o. O. 1990.
Old European songs, for voice and piano. Southern Music, San Antonio 1990.

Books

The Key of Lake. Travel Journals of a Composer. The Plowshare Press, Boston 1967.
A. W. Binder. Jewish Liturgical Composer. Jewish Liturgical Music Society of America, New York 1972.
Seven Pockets. Dorrance, Pittsburgh 1977.
On Jewish Music. A Composer's View. Bloch Publishing, New York 1978.

Memberships and Awards

Jewish Cultural Association
1945: Ernest Bloch Prize for the cantata “Song of Miriam”
1966: Honorary Doctorate “of Humane Letters” of the University of Cambridge

== Text in this box is a Google translation (slightly edited) of the biography in the German edition of Wikipedia
== Photos are from a different source

In April of 1988, I made contact with Herbert Fromm, and he graciously permitted me to call him on the phone for an interview. He responded to my questions, and seemed pleased to be able to talk about musical matters both sacred and secular.

After speaking briefly with his wife, Leni, the composer came onto the phone . . . . .

Herbert Fromm:   Mr. Duffie, this is Herbert Fromm!

Bruce Duffie:   Nice to speak with you.

Fromm: I’m very pleased to meet you even over the phone.

BD:   It’s very kind of you to agree to spend some time with me. I appreciate it. You have been both the conductor and organist and music director at the Temple, and you are also a composer.

Fromm:   Yes, but my composing is really my main occupation.

BD:   How did you divide your time between the duties of a music director at a Temple and that of a composer?

Fromm:   An organist’s occupation is ideal for a composer. We have the great example of Bach. He was an organist and composed all the time.

BD:   Many of your compositions are sacred, and many of them are secular?

Fromm:   Yes, many. I have got a great deal of liturgical pieces, but there’s also a similar amount of secular music, concert music.

BD:   Is all of the sacred music that you write specifically for the Temple?

Fromm:   Yes, for the Temple and the church. There is a great deal in Hebrew, but also much in English, and some of my anthems are widely used in churches.

BD:   Does the Temple expect a certain amount of music per year?

Fromm:   No, I couldn’t say that, but we used to have an annual Music Service, and I usually had a new piece ready for it.

BD:   Some of your commissions were for the Temple, and other commissions were for various individuals and groups?

Fromm:   Yes, they were for the Temple, of course, and also secular forces.

BD:   When you received a commission, how did you decide if you would accept it or perhaps turn it aside?

Fromm:   I would accept it if I saw that my talent would do justice to it. I would ask myself if I am the right person for this. If I felt I’m not, I would not accept it. That’s a limitation each composer ought to know, and anything that goes beyond that, I would feel uncomfortable.

BD:   Did those limitations change over the years?

Fromm:   Yes. Like other composers of today, I am a tonal composer, and like many of them, I’m not a repentant Prodigal Son, who would turn from the rigors of twelve-tone atonality to finding tonality. I’ve always been there. There are endless possibilities of tonal music that fascinate me. With imagination, one can create bold and individualistic pieces thoroughly sounding in the contemporary idiom. I know there are many who declare tonality dead, and that reminds me of Nietzsche’s dictum ‘God is Dead’. With all respect for Nietzsche’s genius, I have to say that the smallest country church is a powerful argument against the ‘God is Dead’ idea. Think of the major triad! What a triumph of wisdom and culture. Tonality has been with us for many centuries. Surely it is the right route, but don’t let anybody tell you that tonal composers squeezed the last drops out of it. Schoenberg’s twelve tone idiom was not the true answer. He wrote his first piece in that style around 1912, which is more than seventy-five years ago. Now, history has handed down the verdict, and twelve tone music has not been accepted by our musical audiences. Wagner's Tristan was absolutely new, but within twenty years it had become a box-office success. That should mean something, even if esoteric composers claim to be impervious to audience reactions. I think music should be a message to more than a few experts.

BD:   Your sacred work will obviously have a spirituality. Will your secular work also have a certain spirituality?

Fromm:   That’s certainly true. There is a certain mutual initial reaction on both sides. It would be presumptuous to even mention Bach in this context, but Bach’s liturgical works and his secular works have very much in common.

BD:   It is the same with your own works?

Fromm:   Well, of course. I’m so far away from Bach’s world that it seems silly to try a comparison, but basically there is a similarity between my liturgical and my secular works.

BD:   Then let me come at the question from another angle. What do you feel are some of the aspects that make a piece of music great?

Fromm:   I’m not particular interested in certain Jewish scales. The one that is the most popular is seen as quite commercial, and is the one now that presents sort of a breast-beating idiom which I personally don’t like. I have a literary sense of our prayer texts, our psalms, our liturgical literature, and I’m trying to get my liturgical music on a similar plane of general excellence.

BD:   Is this something you try to write into your music, or is it just something that appears in your music?

Fromm:   I think I can say without the ugliness of self-praise, that I have a strong literary sense. The Biblical literature means a great deal to me, and it is a spur for me to do better and better.
fromm

* * * * *

BD: When you are writing a piece of music, are you in control of the pencil, or is the pencil sometimes in control of you?

Fromm:   Two things are really self-evident. Text and music should be a perfect unity, and I usually don’t accept what I first write down. If it is a vocal work, I write it down and try to bring what I write to the level of the text. I have written a good deal of non-vocal works where this style does not exist.

BD:   Have you basically been pleased with the performances you have heard of your music?

Fromm:   Yes, usually they’re quite good. I was organist and director of music at the Temple Israel in Boston for thirty-two years, and we had a most excellent choir. They could attempt almost anything, and I could perform at my own place.

BD:   You conducted the performances at the Temple yourself?

Fromm:   I did, yes.

BD:   Is the composer the ideal interpreter of his own music?

Fromm:   [Laughs] That is a question for others. I’ve had some previous experience as a conductor at an opera house in Germany, and I could impart what I wanted the pieces to sound like.

BD:   Is there a chance that you are a better composer because you are also a fine conductor?

Fromm:   It certainly is helpful. I know what will sound and what will not sound, and having worked with choral groups for so many, many years. I know exactly what to expect, and what the actual sound will be when I write choral music.

BD:   Tell me the joys and sorrows for writing for the human voice!

Fromm:   [Laughs] It is for me a wonderful challenge, because, as I mentioned before, text means a great deal to me. When I write for voice, of course, I have to have a text, and so I usually complete it at my own place, Temple Israel in Boston. I knew my singers, I knew what they could do best, and I really tailored my writing through my tenure at the Temple to the quality of the singers I had.

BD:   Did you ever go back and revise a piece for different performers?

Fromm:   No, I never did. I take a great deal of time to finish a piece, but once it’s done, I don’t even look at it anymore. I just forget it, and try to get on with a new work.

BD:   I trust this is not to say that the old works don’t interest you.

Fromm:   No, no, no, but I just want to challenge myself with a new task.

BD:   Do you feel that your music is always moving forward?

Fromm:   Well, maybe it is. It’s very hard for the composer himself to give a really a convincing answer. I can only say I try!

* * * * *

BD:   I asked about the performances. Are you also pleased with the recordings, because they have a wider range of listeners?

Fromm:   Yes, they are mostly excellent performances. For instance, the Hebrew Madrigals are just something I could not have done better myself. [That LP is shown above-left]

BD:   You mentioned the Fantasy, and that you wanted the second version used rather than the first version. [That LP is shown below]

Fromm:   Yes, only the second version of the Fantasy, because in the middle there is a standard beginning of a slower insert, and that just didn’t quite come off. I corrected that, and the new version is to be preferred.

BD:   [With a wink] What do you say if someone listens to the old version and says it’s a wonderful piece?

Fromm:   [Laughs] It has its qualities, but not everybody sees the improvement.

BD:   Have you done any teaching of music?

Fromm:   Yes. I have some private students occasionally, but it is not much. I’ve never had a permanent teaching position. I never looked for it.

BD:   Why not?

Fromm:   Because I don’t think of myself as a patient teacher.

Leni:   [Interjecting] All the pupils he had adored him. They said that he puts the finger on the things they couldn’t find themselves, and so they thought he was a very good teacher. I observed that he doesn’t teach because he says he’s too stingy with his time. He has his profession to do, and his work, which took a lot of effort. He wanted to compose, and that was more or less the main reason why he doesn’t teach.
fromm

Fromm:   Let me just add one more thing concerning teaching. I get so involved with the work of the student that it followed me through the night. To me, it is an immensely serious affair to advise or correct works by a younger composer, and it follows too much into my thoughts. It is sort of a nagging thing with me.

BD:   You put too much of yourself into it?

Fromm:   Yes. It’s a sense of great responsibility, which is some sort of a burden.

BD:   In general, though, what advice do you have for younger composers coming along?

Fromm:   I would like them to turn more and more to write coherent music, to write music that has clear-cut themes, and not to experiment too much with outrageous sounds which, in a year or so, are much less outrageous.

BD:   Are you optimistic about the whole future of music?

Fromm:   [Laughs] Let me say that I feel music will be great. It’s forever and ever, but I don’t think that our present century will be remembered as one of the greatest in musical creation. Ours is a century of great performing, and it can in no way compare with the music culture that pervades at the time of Mozart or Bach. Back then, everybody wrote in the same style, only Bach and Mozart were the best of them. Today we have what is called ‘pluralism’, and many people see it as a welcome sign. But I look at it in a different way. I see it as fragmentation, and in that light it doesn’t sound all that good.

* * * * *

BD:   Earlier you said that you write in the tonal style, and you always have. Is this because you want to write in the tonal style, or is this the rejection of the atonal style?

Fromm:   No, it is not like that. It’s just the way I hear music. I cannot be false to myself. I hear music this way. I have made some studies in twelve-tone music, but only for the sake of study, not in order to be converted to it.

BD:   This was so you could understand it?

Fromm:   Yes, exactly, to understand it better.

BD:   But you still don’t care much about it?

Fromm:   No, it doesn’t appeal me, and I feel that history has already spoken about this.

BD:   You say that earlier, everything worthwhile would be appreciated twenty years after the fact.

Fromm:   Yes.

BD:   Does this stop one from experimenting today, and hoping that it will be appreciated in twenty years?

Fromm:   That is quite possible. It’s almost impossible for me to make a good prediction about what will happen in the future. All I can say is that at the moment, our audiences are frightened away by experimental music. That might change. It might be different in fifty years.

BD:   I want to ask a somewhat philosophical question. In music, where do you feel is the balance between the artistic achievement and the entertainment value?

Fromm:   I really think that the best piece of music is also entertaining. Let me quote something that is not a musical affair, but something that Thomas Mann said in his Der Zauberberg [The Magic Mountain]. He said, “I’m going to tell that story in a very thorough way, and only that which is long and thorough is truly entertaining.” Isn’t that a remarkable statement?

BD:   Yes, very remarkable, and very profound.

Fromm:   I would say a Mozart symphony is both profound and entertaining. When Rossini was in Vienna to hear an opera of his, he had the good grace to visit Beethoven. Beethoven had known some of Rossini’s music, and received him very kindly. As he was leaving, Beethoven said Rossini should go on writing comic operas because they serve to lighten the burden of man. Rossini’s music is comedy, which Beethoven appreciated very highly. It was something he could not do, and he thought Rossini should continue writing these comic operas for that reason. So entertainment is something very important.

BD: Then what do you feel is the ultimate purpose of music?

Fromm: I think it is chiefly to deepen the human experience. If you have any affinity for music at all, it has a deepening effect.

* * * * *

BD:   You were director of an opera house for a while...

Fromm:   No, not director. I was the second conductor. I was very young then, but I conducted operas and operettas, and that was very pleasing. But when it all ended, I was not too unhappy about it.

BD:   Why did you not write any operas yourself?

Fromm:   Oh, I toyed with it a bit, but I gave it up, and I’m sure nothing has been lost. [Laughs]

BD:   Do you still enjoy the opera today?

Fromm:   Oh, yes. I love to listen to it, by all means!

BD:   Do you think that opera works well on television?

Fromm:   It is very good. I hear the Metropolitan broadcasts, and even the ones from other places. It means a lot to me.

BD:   What advice do you have for composers who want to write operas?

Fromm:   In this country it’s a rather hopeless thing. There are so few operas houses, and they’re all very conservative. A new opera is certainly the work of several years for a serious composer, and then he might have it in his drawer forever.

BD:   Has all of the music that you have written been performed?

Fromm:   No. I have quite a number of cantatas, and a string quartet, and a cello suite, and a trio for violin, cello and piano which have not been performed yet. I’m not very outgoing in beating my own drum. I don’t do that, so I’m particularly pleased that you have found my music, and found it interesting enough to do something about it. I think that’s a very happy circumstance.

BD:   I’m glad to have found you, and I’m looking forward to putting your music on the radio.

Fromm:   That would be wonderful. I very much enjoyed talking to you, and thank you for your interest.

BD:   Thank you for spending the time with me this afternoon. I appreciate it.

fromm

See my interviews with Robert Stern, Miriam Gideon, and Yehudi Wyner

fromm

This conversation was recorded on the telephone on April 23, 1988. Portions were broadcast on WNIB four months later, and again in 1990 , 1995, and 2000. This transcription was made in 2026, and posted on this website at that time. My thanks to British soprano Una Barry for her help in preparing this website presentation.

To see a full list (with links) of interviews which have been transcribed and posted on this website, click here. To read my thoughts on editing these interviews for print, as well as a few other interesting observations, click here.

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Award - winning broadcaster Bruce Duffie was with WNIB, Classical 97 in Chicago from 1975 until its final moment as a classical station in February of 2001. His interviews have also appeared in various magazines and journals since 1980, and he continued his broadcast series on WNUR-FM, as well as on Contemporary Classical Internet Radio.

You are invited to visit his website for more information about his work, including selected transcripts of other interviews, plus a full list of his guests. He would also like to call your attention to the photos and information about his grandfather, who was a pioneer in the automotive field more than a century ago. You may also send him E-Mail with comments, questions and suggestions.