Tenor  Wiesław  Ochman

A Conversation with Bruce Duffie

WO:    Yes, my American debut.  Not only for this reason also, but I think Chicago is a kind city, really an American one.  I like very much this architecture.  This is different than New York or San Francisco.  Here is a little bit older architecture together with very modern, and I like this very much.  The downtown is very beautiful.  And I must tell that the Chicago Lyric Opera is really a top theater.  I like very much.  Very professional.  For example, Boris Godunov has plenty of problems every time with the chorus.  For me, it was really surprising that the chorus here had very good studying of Russian, and they’re singing really marvelous.  We were all happy because we have Bartoletti, which helped us, because the opera is very difficult.  It’s not exactly a typical Italian opera.

BD:    No, not really.  The last time we had Boris here was in 1966.  Since then, we’ve had Khovanshchina twice.

WO:    Oh, yeah?  Khovanshchina is a very good opera.  We’re just going to do now in La Scala next February and March.

BD:    With Bartoletti again?

WO:    No, no, this will be Mr. Rudzińsky, the conductor from Moscow.

BD:    Tell me just a little bit about the Boris.  Do you prefer doing the original version or the Rimsky-Korsakov?

WO:    I have the pleasure to participate in three different productions of Boris Godunov.  The first one was in Hamburg State Opera and the producer was Mr. John Dexter.

BD:    Was that in German?

WO:    Yes, it was in German.  It’s a different opera if you sung it in German, you know.

BD:    Yes.  I’ve heard some tapes of it in German and it’s quite different.

WO:    Yes, quite different, like Lohengrin in Italian.  [Both laugh]  It’s sometimes funny.  But we have a very good Shostakovich version.  It was very heavy for the orchestra, but I think that it was more dramatic.  I like very much Mussorgsky, because I think the composer knows better what he’s doing to show and to say to the music.  Shostakovich was thinking more of the orchestra line than the soloists and singing.  The Shostakovich is very strong.

BD:    The Rimsky version is very, very heavy, and very, very colorful.

WO:    Oh, I think the Shostakovich is more.  This is very good orchestration, but they need very good voices to come through the orchestra sound.  We had very good conducting, Mr. Horst Stein.  Second was Shostakovich version also, in the production of Mr. Losey in Paris Opera.  This performance was a subject of discussion of all the critics and the public.  It was really war with the public.  For me it was surprising that the public will see really Russian on the stage.  Mr. Losey has, I think, the very good conception.  He said, “I am going to show a problem of human beings, a problem of power like Hamlet or Macbeth and others.”  That was very good.  That was another kind of opera performance

e have the orchestra behind us; we’re just in front.  We just played directly to the public, and this gives us the possibility to show all this, what we have inside.  We have the connection with the maestro, a Bulgarian maestro.  Mr. Ozawa was sick, and Mr. Rouslan Raichev was conducting.  We watched him through five or six TV sets that only we could see.  The public could not see them because there was some scenery.  That was a very good idea.  It was very difficult.  This was hard work.  I used to play the Dmitry as somewhat psychopathic.  I think this should be, a little bit.

BD:    He’s a little nuts?

WO:    Yes, yes, and not a little.  The love for Marina I play just like obsession.  It is not really love in the sense of “I love you, I love you.”  I have studied this part, and I saw that Dmitry never says to Marina, “I love you.”  In the whole scene he says only, “I’m going to be sad.  I’m going to do this and this and this,” and never said, “I love you.”

BD:    So he’s obsessed with power?

WO:    Yes, because he wants to be Tsar.  Of course he is very fond of Marina, because he was in cloister as a monk for about nineteen or twenty years.  Then to see the girl, it would be very beautiful.  Marina Mnishek, in Poland, was one of the most beautiful girls in this time!  I saw one picture of Dmitry when he was very old, and I must say — I am sorry — he was terrible!  [Both laugh]  He was not a good looking man!  After this, one knows that it was impossible that Marina Mnishek really falls in love with Dmitry.  She was using him.

BD:    She also wants the power?

WO:    Yes!  In this time the Polish aristocracy wanted to have somebody in Moscow because there was politics problem.  In 1772, we lost our independence to the three empires of Friedrich der Große, then Joseph the Second in Austria, and finally Yekatarina the Second in Russia.  Because of all this we have our culture going to keep Polish people together.  I am sorry, but not many people know Moniuszko’s work, for example.  He is really very good composer.

BD:    Then let’s talk about Moniuszko [1819-1872].  He’s written several operas?

WO:    Yes.  The popular ones are Halka, Straszny Dwór, that’s The Haunted Manor, Paria, and Flis which is The Raftsman.  It was at that time that Moniuszko composed this opera to keep the Polish people strong.  We did not gain our freedom again until 1918, so during this time all our art was working with thinking that we should have Polish art everywhere.  We have very good painter, Matejko [1838-1893].  He’s a really great painter, and he was painting only the glorious story of the Polish military and the Polish people.  Moniuszko every time utilized the Polish tenor.  Halka is the story about a mountain girl and a country gentleman.  This was very different.  It was about problem of society, so he used folk music!  The basis was folk music.

BD:    So in the works of Moniuszko touch the heart of the Polish people?

WO:    Yes, this is so.  The Haunted Manor is really a very good opera.  I like it very much.  It is about two knights.  After the war they say, “We never married any girls, we just stayed true to our service.”  Maybe that was not a bad idea.  I don’t know.  [Both laugh]  But The Haunted Manor is really a very good opera.  In December it was given at the Bonn Opera in German.  The critics said, “We are surprised that Mr. Moniuszko is not well known in West.”  But I think it’s the reason that if somebody lost independence and to have to come again

Gomółka [c. 1535-1609?], but it was very, very difficult for Polish composers because the Polish aristocracy was interested only in Western music, especially from Italy.  We had no very good conductors or art people.  It was for a long time some problem. 

BD:    It now seems like you are building a generation of artists and composers and singers.

WO:    Yes!  After Moniuszko we have very good composers such as Władysław Żeleński [1837-1921] who wrote many operas, and Paderewski  [1860-1941] wrote Manru.  This is one gypsy story.

BD:    Have you sung the title role in Manru?

WO:    Yes, I have.  It is a very good opera.  Żeleński wrote Janek and Goplana.  These are Polish stories.  It’s very difficult to have really worthy composers without help.  There must be records, there must be public relations, the audience needs to know who is who, why, and have notes and scores.  After the Second War we just started with this.  We recorded Halka on the disc of Polish opera arias; also The Haunted Manor and Flis.  We just have conception to bring all national Polish music to records.  We will record King Roger by Mr. Szymanowski.  We are going to do it onstage in Buenos Aires next season, and then we are going to record this for disc.

BD:    Do you find it’s easier to do Polish opera, as opposed to Mussorgsky or Italian operas?

WO:    I must say that the Polish opera, Straszny Dwór, The Haunted Manor, is very difficult to sing because there is plenty of soft passages.  Moniuszko was not exactly a composer who understands many things of singing.  He just wrote from heart, so it’s very difficult.  He wants atmosphere.  For example, the aria of Stephan.  He’s alone, and the old melody while he is standing watch reminds him of his childhood years.  When your mother dies, if you have something to say it is impossible to sing fortissimo.  It’s very difficult, and there is a very dangerous part to it.

BD:    It takes lots of control?

WO:    Yes.  When you are on the stage in The Haunted Manor, you must be thinking in the second act that there are three acts, and there will be two scenes after all of that.  You really have to save control and concentration because you must show people what’s going on the stage.  They must know exactly what’s going on the stage.  They keep waiting to know how will we show this.  It is very difficult, like Halka, also.

BD:    When you do Polish operas outside of Poland

WO:    Of course.  I am sure that now that there’s plenty of recordings, many people, every lover of the opera have some singers they love.  That’s a very good idea, because this is the way to study opera.  If you have no recording, that’s terrible.  Think of the radio, for example, you!  The other day I heard this marvelous work on the classical station, and it’s really, really beautiful!  The public says sometimes, “Okay, I don’t like the Mozart.  I prefer pop music.”  But if you show very good Mozart, they can hear it.  My son likes very much the Smokies, the Pink Floyd, and the other kinds, but, he is very fond of Mozart, too.

BD:    Does he enjoy seeing your performances?

WO:    Yes, of course.  They come to every performance and he says, “That was good.  This music is very beautiful.”  We had in Salzburg, for example, Salome with Karajan, and my son was surprising.  He said, “This is beautiful music!”  If you ask somebody from Italy, for example, what is Strauss, he’d say, “No, this is terrible!  This sound is terrible.  I prefer Verdi.”  But for a new generation, Strauss is just normal.

BD:    It hits close to home.

WO:    Yes.

BD:    Where is music going now

s works, and we invited one tenor and soprano from Japan.  It was a really great thing because it was not only Japanese singers, they were from Romania, too, because they did The Haunted Manor in Romania.  We had some people from Germany, East and West Germany.  We had some from Cuba because Halka was done there.  It was really very funny sometimes, because this sound was very strange.  But it was all very interesting and very exacting!  I think that they should be.  It’s not necessary that every time it should be in Polish language.  No.  I understand that to help the composer come out, they should be sung in the language which the singers prefer.  No problem.  It was very surprising because it was TV transmission.  They were on the broadcast and the people were really very happy about this.

BD:    In the large cities like Warsaw and Kraków, the opera season is not just Polish opera, right?  I assume it’s all kinds of operas.

WO:    In Poland we have the Warsaw State Opera, in Łódź is an opera house, in Poznan is an opera house, also in Gdańsk, Kraków, and Bytom.  The first one to open after the war was in Bytom, the Silesian Opera.  The season is about ten months.

BD:    They do a large repertoire?

WO:    Yes, a large repertoire.  In Warsaw we have in repertoire three ballets including Tchaikovsky, and after this we have Il Trovatore, Traviata, Cavalleria Rusticana, Pagliacci, Halka, The Haunted Manor, Tosca, and so on.  Plenty of them.

BD:    And Wagner, too?

WO:    Wagner, of course.  The Flying Dutchman will be next season.

BD:    When these operas by non-Poles are done, do you do them in...

WO:    [Interrupting]  Polish.  For example, now we sang Tosca in Italian and we have Lucia de Lammermoor in Italian, in the original language.  And that’s very interesting because the public just admired this.  They like it in the Italian language.  In December I am going to sing Cavalleria in Italian, too.  Maybe some cast will sing in Polish.  Why not?  [Both laugh]  All the cast in Tosca and Lucia di Lammermoor studied Italian and sang Italian.  Carmen is, of course, in Polish because after the war we wanted to give some education to the people.  It will be very difficult if somebody comes for the first time to the opera house and understands nothing.

BD:    So here again, it’s the same thing.  You say the Polish operas, outside of Poland, should be done first in translation and then in Polish.

WO:    Yes.

BD:    So now the international operas in Poland should be done first in Polish and then in the original.

WO:    Yes.  We just try now to bring in the original version in the original language.  It’s work.

BD:    You’re a great spokesman for the Polish culture.

WO:    I am very proud that I am Polish because we have very, very interesting arts, and it’s a really strong nation.  If you think that this country for so many years lost its independence, and through this time they come with very good art, very good culture, painting, sculpture, music... that must be something!

BD:    It seems like there’s always this pulling, this tugging at your heart, and this is something you bring to your performances.

WO:    Oh, thank you.  That is very kind of you.

BD:    Thank you so much for coming in today.  I do appreciate it.

WO:    Thank you, and again, forgive my English.

BD:    Oh, it’s been very good.  I was able to follow all that you said.

WO:    It is very kind of you.  I never studied English.  Now I’m just studying.  I buy this Berlitz.  It’s beautiful!  I buy three.  I just started now French because they want that I sing plenty of performances in France, and I took German.  [We continued to chat briefly about languages and the Chicago weather as we walked arm-in-arm out the door.]

Wiesław Ochman He graduated from the Faculty of Ceramics of the University of Science and Technology in Kraków (1954-60). While studying, he started learning to sing under the tuition of Gustaw Serafin. He completed private studies under the supervision of professors Maria Szłapak, Sergiusz Nadgryzowski and Jerzy Gaczek. He debuted in Bytom in 1960 on the stage of the Silesian Opera as Edgar in Lucia di Lamermoor by Gaetano Donizzeti. In 1965 he sang the part of Jontek in Halka staged to celebrate the opening of the rebuilt Grand Theatre National Opera in Warsaw. In the years 1966-68 he was a member of the Deutsche Staatsoper ensemble in Berlin and then he gave guest performances on all significant opera stages of the world: Hamburgische Staatsoper, Deutsche Oper, La Scalla in Milan, Metropolitan Opera in New York, operas in Barcelona, Paris, Geneva, Zurich, Moscow, Madrid, Chicago, Buenos Aires, Washington, Rome, Salzburg, San Francisco, Seville, Vienna, Brussels, Frankfurt, Zurich, Toulouse, Marseille, and on prestigious musical festivals such as Orange, Glydenbourne Festival Opera etc. He has given concerts on leading stages: Carnegie Hall, Wiener Musikverin, Salle Pleyel in Paris, all philharmonic concert halls in Poland. He has performed with Berlin and Vienna Philharmonikern under the baton of such distinguished conductors as Herbert von Karajan, Karl Böhm, Eugen Jochum, Leonard Bernstein, Nello Santi, Giuseppe Patane, James Levine, Charles Mackerras, Vaclav Neumann, Gert Albrecht, Christoph von Dohnányi,  John Pritchard, Claudio Abbado, Riccard Mutti, Rafael Kubelik as well as Polish outstanding conductors: Włodzimierz Ormicki, Krzysztof Missona, Stanisław Wisłocki, Witold Rowicki, Stefan Rachoń, Zdzisław Górzyński, Karol Stryja, Jan Krenza, Kazimierz Kord, Tadeusz Strugała, Tadeusz Serafin, Antoni Wit, Jerzy Maksymiuk and others. He acted in performances directed by most distinguished directors such as Erhard Fisher, August Everding, Goetz Friedrich, Joseph Losey, Andriej Tarkowski, Juri Ljubimov, John Dexter, Petrica Ionesco, Evald Schorm, Gian Carlo Menotti, Harry Kupfer, Jonathan Miller and others. He has made a lot of radio and album recordings of opera, symphonic and popular music for renowned record companies. He played in film version of  Tsarevich by F. Lehár (title part) [see photo above], Salome by R. Strauss (as Narraboth) and in Eugene Onegin (as Lenski). After 1999 he took up opera directing. He had more than 70 individual painting exhibitions. Charity has become an important element of his activity – in April 2012 he participated in 20th Gala Concert of Auxilium Foundation which supported the hospital in Zawiercie. He is the honorary resident of Zawiercie, Bytom and Zelowo. He has been awarded numerous distinctions, including Commander’s Cross of the Order of Polonia Restituta [see photo above]. He is a member of Polish Academy of Arts and Sciences as well as doctor honoris causa of the University of Science and Technology in Kraków and of Józef Ignacy Padarewski Academy of Music in Poznań. He was honoured by the authorities of Zawiercie which named one of the roundabouts after him.   --  Text from the website of the Silesian Opera, Bytom, Silesia, Poland  (photos added for this website presentation)

This interview was recorded in the studios of WNIB on October 10, 1980.  Segments were used (with recordings) on WNIB in 1987, 1990 and 1997.  The transcription was made and posted on this website in 2013.

To see a full list (with links) of interviews which have been transcribed and posted on this website, click here.

Award - winning broadcaster Bruce Duffie was with WNIB, Classical 97 in Chicago from 1975 until its final moment as a classical station in February of 2001.  His interviews have also appeared in various magazines and journals since 1980, and he now continues his broadcast series on WNUR-FM.