Mezzo-Soprano / Soprano Janis Martin
A Conversation with Bruce Duffie
|Janis Martin (born 16 August 1939)
is an American opera singer who sang leading roles first as a mezzo-soprano
and later as a soprano in opera houses throughout Europe and the United States.
She was born in Sacramento, California and studied at California State University-Sacramento
and the University of California-Berkeley. She began studying singing in
Sacramento with Julia Monroe and later studied in New York with Lili Wexberg
and Otto Gruth. She made her operatic debut in 1960 at San Francisco Opera
as Theresa in La sonnambula, and
at 21 was the youngest member of the company that season. She continued to
sing a number of comprimario mezzo-soprano roles with the company through
1969, including Sister Anne in the 1961 world premiere of Norman Dello Joio's
opera Blood Moon. [Names which
are links refer to my interviews elsewhere on my website.] She returned
as a soprano in 1970 in the title role of Tosca and appeared there regularly though
1990, when she sang the role of Brünnhilde in Die Walküre, Siegfried, and Götterdämmerung for the company's
complete performance of Wagner's Ring
On 23 March 1962 she had won the National Finals of Metropolitan Opera National
Council Auditions singing "Mon cœur s'ouvre à ta voix" from Samson et Dalila, and later that week
made her New York City Opera debut as Mrs. Grose in The Turn of the Screw. Her Metropolitan
Opera debut came on 19 December 1962 when she sang Flora Bervoix in La traviata with Anna Moffo as Violetta.
She went on to sing 147 performances at the Met between 1962 and 1997, first
in mezzo-soprano roles, including Singer in the 1964 US premiere of Menotti's The Last Savage and from 1973 leading
soprano roles including Kundry in Parsifal,
Marie in Wozzeck, Senta in Der Fliegende Holländer, and the
title role in Tosca. Her final appearance
with the company was in 1997 when she sang Brünnhilde in Die Walküre with Plácido
Domingo as Siegmund and Deborah Voigt as Sieglinde.
Martin sang with the Deutsche Oper Berlin from 1971 to 1988 and at the Bayreuth
Festival from 1968 to 1973, also in 1989, and 1995-1997. She retired from
the stage in 2000 to live in Nevada County, California, where she gives singing
lessons and occasional recitals and concerts.
Janis Martin visited in Chicago in six seasons -- five at Lyric
Opera (as seen in the box below) and in May of 1976 at Orchestra Hall for
The Flying Dutchman with the Chicago
Symphony conducted by Sir
Georg Solti. The cast included Norman Bailey, René
Kollo, Martti Talvela,
and Werner Krenn, and the concert-version was presented both here and at
Carnegie Hall, and then recorded.
During her visit in the fall of 1980, she graciously took time to visit the
studios of WNIB for a conversation. I
don't remember exactly why it came up, but we spoke briefly about being forgetful.....
Janis Martin: Thank
goodness I remember my parts!
Bruce Duffie: Do
you use a prompter?
but sometimes the prompter doesn't know just what you want when you look
down to him. He should give everything all the time.
Don't they speak all the lines regularly?
JM: Some do and
some don't. Some think they're bothering you by giving you your text,
but if all of a sudden you need it and they are just then deciding not to
give it to you, that's when you need it -- and it's too late by the time
you've looked down and they've looked down and found the line. Sometimes
you do use them because you're not a machine and you can have a blackout,
and you don't want to have it go on forever, or sometimes you might twist
a word around, or get the next sentence one sentence too early and it wouldn't
work out with the music.
BD: Do you sing
your roles in more than one language?
JM: There's one
opera that I've done in three languages and I'm going to probably do it in
my fourth -- Bluebeard's Castle,
which I did here in Chicago in 1970. That I've done in English, German,
and Italian, and now Maestro Bartoletti wants me to do it in Florence for
the Maggio Musicale in Hungarian. I told him I would if I have time
to come for four days rehearsals for the staging, and he said he wanted me
on any condition. So I'll try to work it out. I'm very busy at
that time, and then to learn it in Hungarian... Right now I could learn
it very easily because there are a lot of Hungarians around this area.
BD: This station
where you are right now has a Hungarian-language program, and the guy has
been doing it for forty years! [With a gentle nudge] Solti is
in town right now, so you could go to him!
Oh yes, I'm sure he has a lot of spare time to do that for me!
BD: Did you like
the staging here? [The production
at Lyric Opera had one small door at the back-center of the stage, and each
time it opened and the cyclorama "opened" and revealed projections over the
entire back and sides of the stage to go with each new door.]
Janis Martin at Lyric Opera of Chicago
1970 - Bluebeard's Castle
with David Ward; Bartoletti, Puecher
1971 - Tosca
(Tosca) with Bergonzi
1972 - Walküre
Esser, Hoffmann, Rundgren; Leitner
, Lehmann, Grübler
1980 - Lohengrin
, Roar, Sotin
, Monk; Janowski
1982 - Tristan und Isolde
, Sotin, Negrini
; Leitner, Poettgen,
JM: I've also done
it on a ramp where there were not the doors, but each time a light would
come on along the ramp. That was enough in a small theater. Then
I did a crazy staging in Frankfurt with Dohnanyi conducting and Ingvar Wixell
was my partner. It was on a double bill with Schoenberg's Erwartung. I did not do the Schoenberg
-- I had not done it yet, but I've done it lots and lots of times since then.
But in Frankfurt, the director had me start out on a carousel horse and the
wind was blowing through my hair. I had a white dress with lights all
over it, and each light had a little battery. Later I was in a field
and corn was blowing back and forth. It was just nutty, but sometimes
those kinds of things are fun to do.
BD: Do you like
all this imaginative staging?
JM: It depends
on what you are singing. I wouldn't want to sing my vocally most taxing
roles doing those gymnastics, no.
BD: In Bluebeard, there are just the two characters
onstage for the whole hour.
JM: Yes, it can
be kind of boring if you don't have two strong people. You have to
know exactly all the time what you're gong to do.
BD: One of the
great theatrical experiences of my life was at a Chicago Symphony concert
version of that opera. When they opened the fifth door and all that
spectacular brass burst forth...
JM: ...it would
be shattering, yes.
BD: Let's get back
to Wagner. Do you sing your Wagner roles in one or another translation?
BD: Would you,
if you were asked?
JM: Probably not.
In the early part of my career I did sing a Venus in English, and vowed then
and there never to do anything of Wagner in English again.
BD: You don't think
JM: It probably
works for the audience, but it doesn't work for me. I don't like it.
BD: If you were
in the audience would you enjoy it more?
JM: I don't suppose
so because I speak German so fluently, but if I were an American and did
not understasnd German it would be nice to understand the words. But
translations are usually quite archaic. You can't understand them anyway,
and if you do you laugh.
BD: Of course Andrew Porter's translation
of the Ring is superb. I saw and heard that in Seattle. There
they did it one week in the original German and the following week in the
English translation. Noel Tyl mentioned to me about having a memory
lapse in English cycle.
JM: I can understand
that. All of a sudden you don't know which language to sing it in.
You know what you want to say, especially if you're fluent in both languages.
It's criminal to make someone do that -- to go back and forth. They
should do it all in one or the other. However, in Ariadne, quite often in America the Prologue
is done in English and the opera is in German. I used to sing the Composer,
and it's easier to sing in German, but I think the audience appreciated having
it in English.
BD: Maybe someday
they'll rig up some kind of thing like they have on the television screen
with the running translation in a box on the floor... [Remember, this interview was held in the fall
of 1980, long before supertitles were being used in theaters! Perhaps
I should get credit (and royalties) for my idea... (!)]
JM: And too bad
if the singer is on the floor with her face behind all those words!
In the Manon Lescaut on the TV from
the Met recently, I noticed they were on the ground a lot in the last act
and the words were passing all over their faces.
BD: How about singing
two different roles in a single opera?
JM: Oh my, I've
done lots of roles in lots of operas. This is my 20th anniversary year
in opera. I started so very young and I began in little tiny parts
in San Francisco. I studied there for two years in the Merola training
program but was too young to be in a contest they had out there. I
was 18 and 19 and you had to be 21, but Mr. Adler said that I was
very talented and should come and study there. I learned my first scenes
and saw all the rehearsals -- chorus and orchestra, everything.
BD: Is this good
experience for a young singer to witness these rehearsals?
JM: It was for
me. I was eating it all up. I'd never seen an opera before.
I had quickly learned 3 arias to sing for Mr. Adler. I'd only been
studying voice for 3 months when I auditioned for him. I guess I was
a "natural" at that time. I auditioned for him and then trained with
him for two years, and had a standing room pass to the operas. In the
mean time I was going to the University of California at Berkley. Then
I got my contract for the following season when I jumped in for a girl who
had won the auditions. It was in a television program. She was
in two scenes and I was in two others. I was singing mezzo at that
time, and she got sick the morning of the program. I had learned all
of her things, so I did Suzuki and Maddalena and Martha in Faust and part of the title role of Carmen. It was funny. I was
changing from my Japanese eyes, and to long hair back and forth between the
old grey wig and the regular one. Mr. Adler was announcing the program
and was calling off-stage, "Janis are you ready? Can we go on?"
At the end he was very pleased with the way I had handled everything and
kept my nerves, and offered me a contract for the following season.
That was in 1960 and I got very tiny parts. I was an orphan in Rosenkavalier, and the next season I
sang Annina. Then in Germany I sang Octavian and now I sing the Marschallin,
so I really know Resenkavalier by
BD: Suppose you
were asked to do a recording of Rosenkavalier
and sing all the parts that fit your voice. Would you do some kind
of stunt like that?
JM: I don't think
my voice would be suited for Sophie ever, but it would all sound the same,
wouldn't it? Your voice sounds the same whenever you sing even when
you are a different character. You could try to color it but everybody'd
say, "It's her, I can tell!"
BD: Talking of
many roles, you've sung Venus, but have you ever done Elisabeth?
JM: I've sung Venus
many many times. It was the first part I ever sang in Germany.
I've sung Elisabeth in concert and I'll sing it next year in Germany.
BD: Would you do
both on the same evening?
JM: It can be done
but there's no reason to do it. You can say that it's the different
sides of the character, but you don't have to do it. It can be that
was in Tannhäuser's imagination that it's the two sides of the woman
he likes, but it doesn't have to be the very same person.
BD: Then you get into Wagner's imagination.
JM: Well, nobody
can ask him any more! He had a wild imagination, I must say; some of
the stories, and his twists of the various legends such as the Ring that
he put into it himself.
BD: What parts
do you sing in the Ring?
JM: I used to sing
Fricka in both operas, but I never did the Götterdämmerung Waltraute.
I've sung two separate Walküren, and Fricka and Sieglinde, so that's
four parts in that opera. In Rheingold
I used to sing Fricka and now I do Freia -- not everywhere, just in my home
theater, the Deutsche Oper in West Berlin. In Siegfried I don't sing anything and in
I used to do a Norn, which is very interesting. I like those parts;
they've very short, very important, and you're through at the beginning of
the opera. Now I sing Gutrune and I'm there the whole evening and I
don't have a bit more to sing. Probably it won't be too long because
everybody's been asking me for years and years, but I'm starting to get ready
to do Brünnhilde. I will be doing my first Isolde in Zurich in
January, and that leads into that direction. But I've always said that
as long as I'm singing Sieglinde I don't want to do Brünnhilde
because nobody will ask to me to Sieglinde any more, and that happens to
be my very best part of any part I sing. Everybody tells me they think
that's the best thing I've ever sung.
BD: It was a very
satisfying portrayal here.
JM: I feel very
engaged in that opera. I do in most of the parts I sing, unless it's
a part I really can't identify with, and I end up eventually dropping those
BD: You're to the
point in your career now when you can say "no"?
JM: I've said "no"
for years. I've always been able to say "no" because I've kept my cool
and I've never been so ambitious that I've taken things that I felt were
too much for me.
BD: Is it hard
to say "no"?
JM: Oh, of course
it is because you know if it goes well it might make the difference as to
whether you make a world career or not. I decided that I would like
to take the middle way -- take the big houses and take the parts I'm offered
that I want to do, and if they offer me things that I don't want to do then
I don't do them. Maybe people get angry if you say "no", but that's
too bad because if I feel it's not a part for me then I don't do it.
It takes a lot more strength than to say "yes" all the time. I think
that my voice is much fresher at my age than a lot of others singers who
were much more ambitious. I would not say I'm not ambitious but I just
think about it a little more.
BD: You've paced
your career in such a way as to not burn yourself out. Is this the
kind of advice you'd give to a young singer?
JM: It depends
on the temperament. I know I had a lot of temperament, and if I had
gone right into the repertory I sing now I would have probably sung myself
out because I would not have been able to control my self at a young age.
If you can keep cool about it, it is alright, but if you're too cool then
you don't make it very interesting... and you don't make it either.
If you're cool on stage, that's the bad part. If you're cool when you're
thinking about it and looking at your calendar and being realistic, that's
necessary; knowing that there I'm going to have this much time to rehearse,
and I'll have that much time to get used to the time-change from the jet-lag,
and then there will be that many days for a new role, that many days to feel
comfortable with it, who's the conductor going to be, who's my partner going
to be, etc. There are certain stage directors who are so taxing that
you come crawling out for the first performance, so I try not to work with
them too much.
BD: Do you prefer
doing new productions and premieres as opposed to a set show?
JM: It depends
on how much time I have. If it's a big new production in an important
house, then you take the time for it. I don't like to work with people
who upset me and have ideas that go against my convictions. I'm rather
traditional. I like new ideas and I am very excited to be able to talk
to a stage director about them, but I don't like to be forced to do things
that I feel are absolutely wrong.
BD: Have you pulled
out of a production in the middle of rehearsals because of disagreements?
JM: Not in the
middle, but one time it was very close to the beginning. I must say
I'm rather consequential and I'm not hard to get along with, but I don't
accept everything that is thrown at me. There are some things that
are incredible that you can't say yes to if you have any character.
* * *
BD: Tell us a little
about the characters you've portrayed. You're doing Ortrud here in
Chicago. Will you eventually do Elsa?
JM: I don't think
so because I don't think anybody's going to think of me as Elsa. I
have rather a light-colored voice for Ortrud, but I don't believe Ortrud's
a mezzo. I never have believed it. Astrid Varnay was probably
the best Ortrud that ever lived, and she was never a mezzo. Ortrud
needs such a strong high voice, and there are only a couple of places in
a couple of ensembles where it's low. The rest of it is very declamatory
and very high.
BD: Do you find it easy to be menacing?
JM: Well, I'm such
a nice person really... Actually, it's funny. The people who
are the nicest find it easier to be menacing on stage than some people who
are really conniving and terrible. I guess maybe they don't want to
show their true character. Ortrud is not a very nice lady, but she's
convinced that she's right in what she's doing.
BD: Is she the
power rather than Telramund?
JM: Actually I
think Telramund is rather in the hands of Ortrud. She puts the things
in his mind to make him think, "Oh yes, I must do this and that." He
is continually looking to Ortrud, "Am I doing this right?" He relies
on her to give him advice, and when she gives advice to fight against Lohengrin
and he loses, he says, "It's all your fault. You told me to do this."
But then I tell him also to plant this idea in Elsa's mind to ask Lohengrin
his name and where he comes from. I do it myself, too. So he's
a little bit of a puppet, or a marionette under Ortrud's power. She's
more of a force then he is. He has to be strong on stage, but he is
the weaker of the two. I don't think he really realizes just how bad
BD: How would you
feel if, at the end of a performance, the audience was hissing and booing
for the two of you?
JM: I would not
take that as a compliment, but when we are getting into position before the
curtain rises, the chorus will start to hiss and we have a big laugh before
we get going.
BD: Are you distracted
by extraneous things before or during a performance?
JM: I try to detach
myself completely from anything personal while I'm on stage, starting from
just before I step on stage. Five minutes before you go on, you need
to blank out anything else because you need a tremendous amount of concentration
onstage. I find it terribly distracting to have things like noises
from the wings and flies, or doors opening backstage so you hear the faint
sounds of others away from the performance. In Berlin the stage hands
have little walkie-talkies and you can sometimes hear that, or hear some
feedback from there. Things like that jolt me -- nobody else notices
it, but it irritates me tremendously, because it breaks my concentration.
It makes me angry that people are not more considerate of the performance
that's going on, since that's the most important thing happening in the house
BD: Does the conductor
waving his baton bother you?
JM: Well, he's
part of the performance, but I don't always look! One night there was
a man in the first row, right to the side of the conductor, and he was reading
his program with a little flashlight! This annoyed me a lot.
I wanted to stop the performance and tell him to put it out! It was
driving me crazy!
BD: Vickers scolded
the audience once.
JM: Well, I'm not
Vickers, and I didn't want to distract the whole audience. If I am
distracted, I would not want the whole audience distracted. I love
Jon, but I don't understand how he could do that, and I could not do that
BD: How much do
you rely on the conductor?
has to stay together, that's for sure. He's not a machine and some
nights he's a little faster or slower. It can be a problem if he doesn't
catch it right away when you want to go faster because he happens to be slower
that night, or because you have phlegm in your throat or have to swallow
one more time or are a little short of breath or whatever.
BD: Do you find
the good conductors are singing with you?
The very best are. There are a lot of good conductors who are not always
concentrating on the singers because they feel they can rely on certain people.
They feel they can let them go and concentrate on the orchestra, and I happen
to be one of those people they sort of let go. I don't have really
low performances. If I don't feel well, then I cancel, and that is
one thing I've always done... unless there's no other way for the theater
to get somebody else at the last minute, if you get sick at the last minute.
BD: So there are
no times when the manager comes out to announce your indisposition?
JM: There was one
time I had a cold and thought it was over. I had taken some strong
medicine and the doctor said I could go on, and I did, but during the second
act my voice kept getting smaller and smaller. The conductor said he
didn't notice a thing, but I said somebody should go out and make an announcement
before the last act. If I don't make it through the last act, it's
too late after it's over to say anything. I did sort of scrape though,
but it was not the kind of performance I like to give. It was Meistersinger, and the most important
things that Eva sings are in the last act. You just die up there if
you're not feeling well, and my vocal cords were swelling and I couldn't
do anything about it. I had to keep taking more breaths because my
air was escaping.
BD: Did that break
up the line?
JM: Well, if you're
as experienced as I am you can fool a lot of people. I don't like to
fool them, but if you're in trouble you have to sometimes.
BD: Those are the
times you rely heavily on technique.
JM: You must or
you might hurt your throat, and that's your capitol, your whole life, your
career. You must not damage your vocal cords.
BD: I've been at
performances where they announce an indisposition and the singer sounds glorious.
JM: They feel more
relieved. It's all psychological. There are ways of thinking
about that. One can tell the audience that you're indisposed, and then
they're grateful that you've done the performance and gotten through it.
Sometimes they're listening for a little something they might not have heard
otherwise, and they say, "Oh yes, you could certainly hear she was indisposed."
Last December I did my first Marschallin. The first performance I sang
with a cold, and the second one I wondered if I'd ever get through it at
all. The doctor wouldn't guarantee for it, but said 90%, and I felt
BD: Of course you
have the long break because you do not sing in the second act.
JM: Yes, but that's
exactly when your voice can drop. If you keep going and keep singing
and singing, it might drop at the end of the performance. But if you
sing the first act and then it drops before you have the third act to do,
it's too late to stop before the trio and say you're not feeling well.
So I had an announcement made, but I thought that second performance was
better than the first one, so you never know.
BD: Do you read
JM: We have a little
system in our house. My husband reads them, and if they're good he
shows them to me. If they're not, he doesn't say anything about them.
I want to read them anyway, but not before the second performance because
you find yourself being influenced by them. You're a little bit excited
and roughed up a bit before the performance to read something that may not
be even true, but it may make you wonder about something you've done and
there's no time to really think about it. So I don't read them just
before a performance, I read them sometime when I can be objective about
them. I must say I haven't had a bad critic for years [knocks on the
wooden table]. I joked about it the other day saying the good reviews
go in an album and the bad ones go in the wastebasket. It's just one
person's opinion, and everybody has a different opinion -- even the critics.
They have their problems, too. They might have been working hard all
day, or eaten too much or not eaten anything, or just had a fight with their
wives or whatever.
* * *
BD: Do you like
singing the long parts? You're into Wagner and these are the very long
and arduous parts. Do you like these as well as shorter ones?
JM: It's a hard question to answer. I don't
like them because they're long, they happen to be long and I happen to love
some of those parts. I would prefer to have some shorter parts, and
I'm hoping maybe in the future to have a few that are shorter because at
the moment all of mine are just killers. There are none where I can
go in and say, "Tonight I have an easy evening." One of my easiest
evenings would be a hard one for anyone else. In my theater in Berlin,
they asked if I wouldn't like to have an easy evening and do the mother in
Hansel and Gretel. Actually,
I'd rather do the witch ... [laughs] My son would love it.
BD: Do you like
all the parts that you sing? Are you sympathetic with the characters,
or are there some that lie well for the voice but you don't like the character?
JM: I do not like
Venus, and I've done Venus probably more than any other single part in my
repertory. It is not written very sympathetically for the character,
and consequently for the person singing it. She should be seductive
and she has no chance at all to be seductive -- at least in the Dresden version.
BD: Do you prefer
the Paris version?
JM: I did that
first, and they still do that version in Vienna -- an old Von Karajan staging
of it with terribly old costumes and wigs. It's probably one of the
few places outside of Paris that they do that version. The Parisians
feel it's their version. That version is longer but easier for me.
It's more singable, more seductive, so you can understand how he was there
in the first place. In the Dresden version, the minute she opens her
mouth she's screaming at him all the time, being sort of nasty to him all
BD: But you convey
JM: I do, but if
someone asks me if I like the part I cannot honestly say that I like singing
BD: Are there roles
that you want to sing that are not in your voice?
JM: I suppose some
of the Italian, Verdi roles. I never really thought about roles that
are not for my voice. I'm not an Aïda, I'm not a Traviata.
I would like to sing Manon Lescaut and have not done it yet. I would
also like to sing Santuzza. In Europe that's done a lot by a soprano.
It needs a good middle and lower range, which I have from the days I was
a mezzo. I need that for Ariadne and Sieglinde and other parts in the
BD: How did you
arrive at the decision to go from mezzo roles to soprano roles?
JM: My voice made
a gradual change as I matured. When I went to Germany I was 26 years
old and I had not yet sung a big part. That's the reason I went there.
I went to Nuremberg to get my repertory, and through singing Amneris, Eboli,
Dorabella, the Composer, Octavian, and Cherubino I found that I was the best
in the high parts. One of my best parts used to be Eboli, although
some of it was too low for me. In all the parts where most of the mezzos
would die because of the high range, that's where I would shine. The
Composer is very high, and Octavian is not very low, and people and critics
were writing that perhaps I was becoming a soprano -- which in fact, I was.
It was a gradual, natural thing. I didn't just decide; it happened
BD: There are some
mezzos today who are trying to push their voices up to soprano.
JM: I don't know
whey they don't just try to be what they are.
BD: Because they
want to sing Tosca?
JM: Tosca is a
fantastic part, I must say, but you can't push yourself into something you're
not. Eventually you pay for it. You have to find out what you
can sing and what you can't.
BD: This is the
patience that you have which is all too rare.
JM: I don't know
if it's patience. I certainly try things out before I say that I'm
going to do them.
BD: When you approach
a new role, what steps to you take?
JM: I get the score
and I look at the music and at the words. I look at the type of character
and the kind of singing that's going to have to be done, and the range --
whether there is a lot of piano
in the high portions. That's why I would not do Aïda, because
although I have a good high voice, I don't have the kind of voice that can
keep singing piano with great relaxation
in the top. That takes more lyricism, and I have a more dramatic voice.
I think the parts I sing suit me physically and vocally. There are
a few roles that would suit me very well -- I could sing Octavian perfectly
well -- but nobody's going to engage me to sing them, so why would I try
to sing them? I must be realistic about it. I'm smart enough
to know that nobody's gong to think of me as that character. I would
love to sing Desdemona, but nobody's going to engage me to sing that.
People think of me in the Wagner/Strauss roles. In a way it's too bad,
but in a way it's good because it's the roles I do sing the best.
BD: What about
making recordings of a few of those roles that you would not do on the stage?
JM: As a matter
of fact I did Adriano in Reinzi,
and I would never, ever sing it on stage. I had a series of concerts
in Berlin and Vienna and the house just went wild, but I wouldn't want to
do a lot of fencing and protecting my girl friend. Being a knight in
shining armor just doesn't suit me, although it's a beautiful part to sing.
It's very taxing, very hard.
BD: How did you
approach Octavian, then, when you were singing it? You've got to be
a young man.
JM: I was a young
woman, and it is written for a woman, so you don't really have to be a man.
You're a young person. I was very arduous in a way that I could make
it believable. I was quite slender than. Most people are surprised
to see how short I am. I think big! I have a certain carriage
and I do it on purpose. I know why I am doing it. I do try to
wear comfortable high shoes to make myself look a little bit taller.
BD: What about
modern repertoire? You do some Berg...
JM: The only Berg
opera I've ever done is Wozzeck.
I wouldn't do Lulu. That wouldn't suit me, anyway. The only other
new work I do is Erwartung of Schoenberg.
That's 30 or 35 minutes of just one person, a monodrama. It's very
taxing and very hard. When I first started I thought I would never
ever get it learned right. It's just something that's incredible.
BD: What if a young
composer wants to write something for you and asks for advice?
JM: I'd say to
finish it first and let me see it. It would have to be someone who
knew my voice while composing it. I wouldn't just say, "Oh fine, I'm
thrilled." I would ask if he knew what I can and cannot do, and what
I do the best and what I don't do the best. It would have to be someone
who was writing it with me in mind, knowing what I can do and what I sound
best doing. It wasn't written for me, but I was offered a part for
a record in Milan recently while I was there doing Erwartung with Abbado at La Scala.
I was shown the score, but I knew before I was saw it that I wasn't going
to do it because I know what this composer writes like. It's been done,
but never recorded. I looked at it and thought, "My God, how could
anybody want to do that?" It had me humming a high C with the mouth
closed and slowing opening the mouth. Maybe somebody will say yes to
that, but it's not going to be me.
BD: Are there any
composers today who write in a style grateful to the voice?
JM: Probably you're
asking the wrong person because I don't know too much about it. In
the time I was at the Met we were doing Vanessa. Barber, Britten and Menotti
are the three that come to my mind that I think write beautifully for the
* * *
BD: Are you good
JM: Yes, at something
that I don't have a part in or don't sing. Watching an opera that I
have a part in, I can't sit still. Everybody does it differently.
I know all the mistakes and I think, "Oh isn't that terrible," or "Oh, I
wish I could do it like that." I'm a good audience if I have the nerves
for it and have the time. I don't go to a log of opera, though.
I go to other things. I like to go to musicals and the ballet and symphony
BD: Straight plays?
JM: Mm-hmm, a lot.
BD: Would we find
you at a disco?
JM: No, it's too
loud for me. I'm used to having the orchestra in front of me, but not
BD: Speaking of
things in front of you, do you like working with a scrim?
JM: It's good for
the lighting but it's terrible for us. We can hardly see the conductor
sometimes. In this Lohengrin
in Chicago there are two scrims, and you feel like you're singing into a
BD: The overall
impression comes across to the audience very well, however.
JM: Oh I know it
does. I'm not worried about it. It's good for certain lighting
effects, but sometimes I wonder why they're using it because certain effects
are not very effective. The visual effect is very important.
BD: Are there times
when you go to the director with an idea to try?
JM: Only in things
I'm doing myself. I don't give hints on how to stage the opera in any
way. If he's told me to do something and I don't feel that it's right,
or if I feel I can't do it yet, I ask him to explain it to me in another
way and then I try it a couple of times. If I can't do it properly
and with conviction, then I say to give me another day or two to work it
out, or eventually ask him to do something else there. I ask if we
could find another way to express the same thing.
BD: What if you
got a really good idea for another character? Would you ask the director
to try it?
JM: I'd probably
talk to my colleague first and see if he thought it was a good idea.
Sometimes you can offer the stage director something that works because the
two characters have already gotten together on it.
BD: Have there
ever been directors who have left you too much on your own to come up with
ideas for your character?
There was a problem at La Scala recently. Abbado, who was conducting
Erwartung, wanted to do all the
staging that Schoenberg had written into the score. There are only
about ten things he wrote there, and it's usually when there is not very
dramatic singing -- things to the side which are not very important to the
action, actually. He wanted somebody to stage it, but the person did
not want to do what was in the score, so it was up to me. Then they
gave me a very unfortunate dress. It was by a very famous designer,
and everybody was so impressed that I was going to get this beautiful dress
from him. I thought it was just awful, and so did the critics.
They said it was too bad that this dress was designed for this opera, and
the poor lady sang so beautifully and had to wear this horrible thing.
It distracted rather than helped. I saw that from the very beginning,
but everybody was so impressed with the designer's name. I'm not impressed
by that very much. So I had to do the staging myself. I asked
for this and that, and the director gave me those two things on an empty
stage. The rest of it was flat with nothing on it, with the projections
that Schoenberg had used, and they just didn't work, that's all. I
thought it was miserable, but the main thing was the music and we got that
BD: Is that the
way it is in opera -- that the main thing is the music?
JM: In this case
the main thing is the dramatic impact of the music and the dramatic impact
of the one person, no matter what is surrounding her. If the personality
of the one person in this work does not come through, you might just as well
forget it because there's nothing left to it. Nobody can help you.
BD: What about
in a larger work like Meistersinger
or some others?
JM: Then there
are lots of people, and each does his own thing and relies on the others
to do theirs. Then they get together on it.
BD: In a way I'm
asking the "Capriccio" question -- is the music the servant of the words
or vice versa?
JM: I don't think
you can separate them at all.
BD: Do you enjoy
JM: It depends
on the conditions . If they're done too hastily without a chance to
repeat things and do them well and be relaxed about them, then I don't enjoy
it. The Rienzi was quite satisfying
and I did enjoy it. We had lots of time for it, and that was nice.
BD: I'm looking
for your thoughts on the put-together perfect-performance that emerges on
the plastic disc.
JM: It's hard on
the live performance because people sit at home and listen to the "perfect"
performance. They're almost dead performances because they don't have
any imperfections in them -- at least they shouldn't. Sometimes they
do because they've been made too hastily and not heard well enough before
they're been released. Then the audience goes to a live performance,
and somebody stubs their toe or something distracts the audience and they
say they'd rather listen to their recording. But then that's not realistic
because you have a completely different kind of acoustic in a live theater
and you also have this chance of something going a little bit wrong -- which
is interesting I think. It's the live performance with the personal
things about it...
BD: It has more
JM: It does.
You just can't compare them. I'm much more for the live performance
than for the recording. I think things should be recorded so you have
them forever and you can listen to them at your leisure. Why shouldn't
you have recordings as well as the live performances? I'm for both,
but it's not so good to compare the two.
BD: What about
TV and films?
JM: It can bring
people closer to the opera -- especially those with subtitles -- and brings
opera to people who might not ever have a chance to see an opera otherwise.
I think it's good.
BD: It should stand
along side but not be a substitute?
JM: Oh, hardly
* * *
BD: I want to ask
you a bit about Isolde. You're just coming to this part, so tell us
a little about the Irish princess.
JM: She gets to use a lot of the things I've learned
though many years of singing. She's very angry at the beginning with
Tristan, and she gets to be ecstatic in the love duet and then sort of mystic
and mythical at the very end. I can see myself using a lot of the experience
I've had from many parts I've sung. I'll need a lot of the good middle
range that I've had in the mezzo parts and a lot of the good high range and
a lot of the experience I've had from singing Wagner.
BD: You have done
many performances as Brangäne...
JM: Yes, as a matter
of fact that was the last mezzo part I ever did, and I did it with Birgit
Nilsson in 1969 or 70.
BD: Will you wipe
out the one part when you sing the other?
I've really not done it in 10 years. I remember having done it and
I remember the words she sang and the music she sang, but it's not going
to interfere at all. I've never had any trouble weeding out one part
from the other -- like the Marschallin and Octavian. I was a little
worried about Eva and Magdalena in Meistersinger
because they have all that pitter-patter dialogue singing, but nothing ever
happened. I would always warn the mezzo not to make any mistakes because
then I'd ask the question and answer it, too. [Both laugh]
BD: What about
the end of Tristan? How do
you see this transfiguration -- is it mystical?
JM: It's not mystical,
but it shows a person who has gone through the span of life in a very short
time -- from the child she was at the beginning, she's the mature woman at
the end who knows. She's sort of wise and all knowing. I've not
done it yet so it is really too early to ask me. I'm right in the middle
of studying it now.
BD: Is it something
you're really looking forward to?
JM: Oh, very much.
It's the longest part I've ever done in my whole life -- it's probably one
of the longest in the repertory, and the most taxing, probably.
BD: We've not touched
on the Dutchman, which you sang
here and recorded with the Chicago Symphony and Solti. Do you find
that she goes through the same kind of thing as Isolde only in a shorter
time span -- from the innocent to the mature?
JM: No, I think
Senta is a much different character. She's the dreamer. She's
looking for someone she's not even sure was even real or that she would ever
see. Isolde is dealing with a person she fell in love with. He
killed her fiancée and sent her the fiancée's head, and she
still fell in love with him. Tristan's really a pretty miserable character
when you think about it. So she's dealing with a real person and Senta
is dreaming about this picture and the story she's heard.
BD: Is Senta really
surprised when the Dutchman actually arrives?
JM: I think deep
down she knows he exists, but doesn't expect him to be standing in her doorway.
BD: What would
she have done if he had picked one of the other girls who were spinning?
That's a good question. I don't know! They're not so interested
in him. They probably would have all run away. They all know
the story, but there's a bond between those two electric poles.
BD: What about
JM: I do that one
all the time. Around Easter time I could do ten Kundrys in ten days
if I'd let myself. Vienna, Munich and Berlin all do productions at
the same time, and it's a part I've gotten so well known for that I get asked
by everyone to do it. I never can say "yes" to everyone, so somebody's
always angry and you can't help it. Sometimes I split myself between
two, but not more. Last year I did Vienna and Berlin, and the previous
year I did Munich and Berlin. It's just different each year.
You can't do everything.
BD: Tell us about
JM: She's fascinating.
She's in a different state in the different acts. In the first act
she's not being possessed by Klingsor; it's when he pulls her with
his magnetism towards the end of the first act when she's going to sleep.
She says she must sleep and asks that no on come near her. Then he
takes possession of her, and all her actions toward trying to seduce Parsifal
are under the influence of Klingsor. It's not what she wants to be;
it's what she has to be.
BD: Is it her mind
that is under his power or her soul?
JM: I don't know...
Can you separate your mind and soul in an opera character? It's hard
to say. She must do it for whatever reason. She's compelled to
do it; he makes her do it. She doesn't want to do it. She wants
to be good. She says to Gurnemanz, "I never can be good. I'm
terrible. Don't thank me for anything." She doesn't want anybody
to be nice to her because she feels terrible. She feels guilty although
she doesn't know what she's done.
BD: Is it almost
like a hypnotic state?
Then at the beginning of the second act with Klingsor she's miserable, absolutely
miserable. She's trying to fight him off and he's stronger than she
is. Then he takes possession of her and wins her over, and she starts
laughing and becomes hysterical.
BD: How does the
laugh and the scream affect the voice?
JM: I've learned
how to do them without hurting myself at all. The first time I thought
I was going to strangle myself. You have to support it like a high
G and let your voice come down like a waterfall -- at least that's how I
do it. You must never just scream. You have to support like mad,
otherwise you could hurt yourself.
BD: Do you enjoy
the third act where you only sing a couple of words?
JM: Very much.
It is the most rewarding thing, although you must get calmed down and quiet
enough to do that third act. It's simply an acting part. It's
just beautiful and I just love it.
* * *
BD: Now you're
looking toward Brünnhilde?
JM: Well, everyone
else is looking toward it for me! I've said "no" up to now, but....
BD: Would you be
able to do just one and not the other two?
JM: That's the
thing. Once you start doing one, then everybody what you to do all
BD: Would you be
happy doing just one of them?
JM: I would
like to do the Walküre, but
most people think of me in Götterdämmerung.
Siegfried is the shortest but probably
the hardest. You have the whole day not knowing what to do with yourself
because you have a hard performance, but it's so very late that evening and
the tenor is nearly dead by that time. People think she's got it easy
but she doesn't. She has to come in there and be fresh and not worried,
and that's hard.
BD: Do matinee
performances bother you?
JM: I draw the
curtains and pretend it's later. The voice is different at that time
of day; our bodies are geared for eveing work. We're used to getting
up late and having something to eat, and then exercising or resting and then
going to a performance.
BD: What about
going from one side of the world to the other?
JM: I try, now,
not to sing immediately after I get somewhere. When I went to Japan
last February, I stopped over in Anchorage first for two days to break up
the trip, and then went on to Tokyo. Then I was there about a whole
week before I sang. I gave myself the luxury of having a whole week
before and a week after so that I could get used to the time change, then
have my rehearsals, then the concert, then a week after for myself to enjoy
seeing a little of Japan. It's not every day you can go to Japan.
BD: Is going from
East to West easier than going from West to East?
JM: It depends
on whether you've just packed your suitcase and rushed off with hardly any
sleep or not both ways. Sometimes you're a victim and other times you
can plan a little bit better.
I trust you enjoy singing!
JM: Oh I do.
I must admit that. It's a great part of my life. I love sports
and I love to swim, but my family and my singing are the most important things
to me in my life. Sometimes it's very hard to co-ordinate the two,
especially travelling around. I have a little boy who will be seven
in two days. We live in Germany. He was born there and is being
brought up bi-cultural and bi-lingual. He goes to the John F. Kennedy Schule, a German-American
BD: So how do you
bring your youngster to opera?
JM: In our case
it's quite interesting. My husband started a boys choir thirty-three
years ago in West Berlin, in the ruins of the city. He had gone to
the musik hochschule and studied
instruments. He wanted to do something, but after the war what was
he going to do? He took little boys from the street, with the patches
sewn on their trousers and their shirts, and had them sing for the grandmothers
and the wounded. In the years they have made many recordings and gone
all over the world and been to the World's Fair and on TV. They are
the Schöneberger Sängerknaben
[named after the District of Schöneberg in Berlin]. They have
also sung at the Deutsche Oper in many operas that need children. These
days he has children of the first group of boys! That's quite an accomplishment
to have started that out in those times without any government support and
continue for all these years. Anyway, they sing in Hansel and Gretel, and that was the first
thing my son saw at the opera. He went backstage afterword and saw
where the angels had been kneeling down and the tree that Hansel and Gretel
went to sleep under. He was fascinated by it all. He doesn't
like to go to rehearsals; he just likes to see the finished product.
He hasn't gotten that far that he wants to see the repetition. But
I can't take him to all the things I'm in. They're too long, or I'm
killing somebody, or they're killing me, or I'm jumping off somewhere.
In the Flying Dutchman I kill myself
in the end, and in Tosca I kill
the baritone and then kill myself and the tenor gets shot. He's still
a little young for that when it's Mommy, but he is getting so he can take
it in other works. There are lots of theater mothers, but I'm not too
ambitious about forcing my child into that.
BD: If he goes
in that direction, will you encourage him?
JM: I would rather
hope that he does not want to become a singer. Unless you become someone
very, very famous, it's a very difficult job for a man. You can land
at the very bottom or not very much above it, eating your heart out because
you didn't make it. If you don't have something to fall back on it's
a miserable profession. If you make it to some degree and you're satisfied
with what you've done, then it's OK, but what can a singer do if you can't
get a job and can't sing? You're not prepared for anything else.
It's too young for my son yet, but he's said he wants to be a veterinarian
and an astronaut, so who knows what he will be? But I would like to
have him trained to do something that's useful and needed at the time that
he's going to be grown up.
BD: If nothing
else, he will be a good audience!
JM: He will be
a good audience, and he has a gorgeous voice. I could imagine he would
want to be a singer, but he has said he'd rather be a conductor. [Both
laugh] He's definitely a leader. He stages all the games you
play with him, and tells you what to say and where to stand. I might
imagine him as a stage director...
BD: But despite
the difficulties, you enjoy your own career!
JM: Very much!
You know what I hope never happens to me is that I sing just for money.
I like to make a good salary because I have to live, but I never want to
go on the stage having the feeling that this is a job. It's a performance
for me every time I step on the stage no matter where I am. It's an
experience for me and I hope it is for the audience. I don't know what
will happen when I get too old to sing these parts, but I'm not too worried
BD: Might you then
sing smaller character parts?
JM: Someone I admire
is Martha Mödl, and
she's done that. I don't know whether it's out of necessity
or if she just would collapse if she didn't sing.
BD: There seems
to be a German tradition of leading singers doing small roles as they get
older. This brings their huge experience to the younger colleagues.
Paul Schöffler did that as I recall.
JM: It depends
what kind of singer you are. Martha Mödl can do that because there
are interesting parts for her, but for someone who has sung soubrette all
their life, what can an old soubrette sing? There just aren't any parts
for an old soubrette. Astrid Varnay is another who has done some interesting
parts later on. That might be what happens to me because I tend to
go for the interesting parts anyway. I love the interesting characters.
I do Marie in Wozzeck because she's
an interesting and complex character. She's heartwarm and tragic.
She wonderful. Tosca has everything a woman would want from a part
-- glamour and love and hate and violence. I can see why people would
want to give up everything else just to sing Tosca. I suppose I'm able
to be more grateful to be an opera singer now that I'm a little bit older.
When you are a beginner you're just more anxious to get going and get your
career on its feet. When I left the Met I was still singing small parts,
and I made up my mind I wanted to sing big parts. This is how much
I think about things before I do them. When I went to Germany, I secretly
said to myself -- I don't think I ever said it in words -- if I don't make
it at least to some degree within two years, then I am going to give up completely
and do something else. By the time I'd been there for three months,
I'd already sung Venus in the Paris Version of Tannhäuser in Paris! I was
under contract to a smaller theater, but I guested in Paris. I also
sang Venus at La Scala. I'm grateful to have sung it because it's taken
me so many different places, but I still don't have to say I like it.
BD: Thank you so
very much for taking the time to speak with me.
JM: You're welcome.
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© 1980 Bruce Duffie
This conversation was recorded in the studios of WNIB, Chicago, on
October 16, 1980. Portions were broadcast on WNIB in 1989, 1994 and
1999. The transcription was made and much of it was published in Wagner News in April, 1981, and in Opera Scene in October, 1982. It
was re-edited and the complete interview was posted on this website in 2014.
To see a full list (with links) of interviews which have been transcribed
and posted on this website, click here.
winning broadcaster Bruce Duffie was with WNIB, Classical 97 in Chicago
from 1975 until its final moment as a classical station in February of 2001.
His interviews have also appeared in various magazines and journals since
1980, and he now continues his broadcast series on WNUR-FM, as well
as on Contemporary Classical Internet Radio.
You are invited to visit his website
for more information about his work, including selected transcripts of other
interviews, plus a full list of his guests. He would also like to call
your attention to the photos and information about his grandfather,
who was a pioneer in the automotive field more than a century ago.
You may also send him E-Mail with
comments, questions and suggestions.